Peter Kennedy 20.06.10
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21/06/2010 at 10:21 pm Permalink
I had the pleasure of listening to Peter’s homily on Sunday. How great it is to gather each Sunday and not be lectured but inspired, challenged and uplifted. Thanks for your courage Peter.
22/06/2010 at 10:30 am Permalink
Unless of course you are one of those laggards not so far along ‘the journey’ as Peter. Then I imagine you might feel a bit lectured and talked down to.
22/06/2010 at 12:15 pm Permalink
Ah the mysterious Perry Mason returns! Hard to take you seriously when you hide behind a phoney name. Given you were not there (bit hard to come when you live so far away) you need to understand that most people who now attend SMX bear no ill will or anger towards any mainstream Catholics at all. Many of us still work in Catholic schools and Institutions (in spite of threats not to attend SMX by the way). But the vitriol which comes from those who appear to be so threatened by us is extraordinary. Peter was at pains to emphasise that he was talking about his journey, not suggesting to anybody to that they too should be “following him”. SMX is an adult community of thinking people who attend by choice, not because we passively accept everything the Catholic Church tells us.
22/06/2010 at 3:00 pm Permalink
Peter Kennedy seems unable to accept that anyone ‘not so far along the journey’ might have thought about it rationally and found that that is where they are closest to the truth. For him it is always – you have been indoctrinated, or it’s your personality, or you don’t want to leave your comfort zone, etc. That sounds pretty offensive to me, but I guess if the audience accepted it ….
Speaking of vitriol, Peter gives forth his share of it whenever he speaks about catholics and catholic beliefs. Right here he calls the pope ‘stupid’ for speaking about the devil. Now, can anyone explain to me why it is ‘stupid’ to say that there is a malevolent spiritual force at work in the world, but mature and intelligent to think ‘there is something out there but I have no idea what’?
22/06/2010 at 3:45 pm Permalink
I don’t think I have ever heard Peter speak badly about “Catholics” as such but rather point out the absurdity of clinging to medieval dogma that was developed when people thought the world was flat, that the earth was created in 7 days (the first few day before the Sun was, so that is really impressive!) and woman were chattels. As for the Pope being stupid about thinking the devil is a real evil “being” I would be more inclined to use the word “delusional” but as I said, we actually think for ourselves.
But I ask why do you bother immersing yourself in this web site if you are so sure of your faith model is truth? I wish you peace my dear “Perry”. That’s what we do at SMX.
22/06/2010 at 5:59 pm Permalink
David C. says:
“…but rather point out the absurdity of clinging to medieval dogma that was developed when people thought the world was flat, that the earth was created in 7 days (the first few day before the Sun was, so that is really impressive!) and woman were chattels.”
I don’t think too many medieval thinkers believed in a flat Earth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_earth
And I for one am prepare to forgive any person who lived in the medieval period for not understanding the “Big Bang” and 20th Century Cosmology.
And I don’t think any of those medieval dummies developed any Church dogma that stated women were chattels.
It seems to me that people who reject Catholic doctrine do so not because of science but instead because the Church’s doctrines, if taken seriously, force people out of their comfort zone.
22/06/2010 at 9:26 pm Permalink
‘Stupid’ or ‘delusional’, it just seems like the same vitriol you object to from others.
Anyway, you kindly asked about my interest in this website. First I am at a loss to know how you come to conclude that I am ‘so sure of your faith model is truth’. I am just a humble seeker of truth and wisdom. I know a little of catholic teaching and what I don’t know I easily find out. (It’s not a secret society.) The fascinating thing for me is how this community has thoroughly repudiated its former catholicism yet can’t seem to help coming back like a moth to the light. Only recently a speaker thought it necessary to find out and report back on what the Catholic Encyclopedia had to say on some subject. Before that there was an uproar over some proposed changes to the words of the liturgy – from people who had freely taken it on themselves to change it for their own purposes. Fascinating.
However, basically, I blame your website designer for the Comments page. ‘Hey stranger’ it hisses to me as if from some dark alleyway, ‘wanna leave a message?’
And I’m hooked.
23/06/2010 at 10:12 pm Permalink
Before this conversation peters out, can I put forward my nomination for the best self-contradictory statement this week?:
‘These doctrines couldn’t possibly be from God – whatever God is.’
Note how the absolute conviction of the first part is followed by the utter uncertainty of the second part, which thereby effectively negates the first part. Beautiful, just beautiful!
24/06/2010 at 10:10 am Permalink
I see no contradiction, only honesty.
You think of God and what comes into your head? A bearded man sitting on a cloud? Have you not moved on from that image? How can we, mortal humans, know God? We can only try. Ultimately doctrines, derived from the Jewish traditions were developed by men (woman had no say) in an attempt to “know” God. It was the God they met through thier life changing expereinces of Jesus. Humans have been trying to understand it ever since. But they are constructions of men, not God. I see no contradiction.
Peace and Love…
24/06/2010 at 2:56 pm Permalink
David, you follow the Hitchens / Dawkins strategy of setting up a straw man that nobody actually believes (bearded guy in the sky) then ridiculing it and thinking you have made a point.
You have a particular theory about how catholic doctrine evolved. For all I know you might be right. But that is a mile away from saying ‘I know these doctrines can’t have come from God, even though I have no idea what God is’. The second part may be honesty, as you say, but the first part is logically incompatible with the second.
I am no theologian, but Catholic thought, as I understand it, is that Jesus sent his followers to preach to the world, promising them the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and that the Catholic Church is the inheritor of that mission and that promise. Now, stop! Before your fingers fly to the keyboard, please note I am not asking you to believe this, just to acknowledge that it is, at very least, a logical possibility which, if true, would explain how catholic teaching could be ‘from God’ i.e. bearing God’s authority, even though our knowledge of God is necessarily limited.
24/06/2010 at 3:24 pm Permalink
The doctrinal/theological battle continues. I think I’ll exit from this talk, but I do have to contribute to the more general SMX/St Mary’s discussion.
I have to make this point very clearly: not all the issues surrounding the formation of the ‘SMX’ community in 2009 were by any means, doctrinal, theological, liturgical. There were others – church history, music, the arts, church administration, to name several, and in fact, some of these seemingly lesser issues which have not received media attention like the others may be just as important. Those leaving, staying, or joining either community had to weigh up a broad range of issues not covered in print/electronic/tv coverage.
Whilst doing photography for JB’s “Swoon In June” last Friday which raised almost $4000 for charity – not strictly any longer a ‘St Mary’s’ or ‘SMX’ event like previous years, but still attended by many from both communities (that’s right there are events where members of both ‘St Mary’s’ attend) I had the wonderful opportunity to catch up with SMX musicians again, and there are some very fine ones among them, such as Deon Payne. One non-musician SMX member I spoke to who I identified myself only very briefly as a member of the old St Mary’s church, said we all hoped for reconciliation between the 2 communities at some point, although he suggested this would not happen.
Can I suggest it is up to individuals to begin, at some level at least, this process? I have come back to the old church in September 09 to take responsibility – more than I have for many years at St Mary’s – to help be part of a team to steer a community through difficult times. I do not know the outcome. I cannot look 10 years down the track and say where I’ll be, whether I’ll still be at St Mary’s, although I’ll hazard a guess the music will be in a stronger place than when I came.
Returning to the old church was one of the hardest things I’ve done in my life, but 6 months later I felt more comfortable with my decision (this is not by the way, an advertisement to invite others back – everyone makes their own personal decision, and must be respected).
This is a unique and highly unusual process St Mary’s has gone through in recent times, but there are some broader issues which are symptomatic of broader church and social issues. There is a ‘middle ground’ of members of both communities – there always has been. And no one has a crystal ball to look years down the road and say where either St Mary’s community will be.
24/06/2010 at 3:45 pm Permalink
Your comments, which I think are quite insightful, are duly acknowledged Perry.
And TIm, yes Deon is a gem !!! Wish he played at 9am more…
25/06/2010 at 11:44 am Permalink
There are a few musical ‘gems’ past and present of both St Mary’s & SMX – truth is the music’s never been properly recorded, documented, thus the history has not been correctly told. All i can do is work towards this happening down the track, but may not achieve that. Trying (again) and failing is better than not trying and will leave me at peace.