The Trouble with St Mary’s
If you wish to buy a DVD of the film (Feature version and other DVD extras) please go to www.thetroublewithstmarys.com
Following on from the ABC Compass program, The Trouble with St Mary’s, May 29- 2011, many comments have been sent. Please provide your comment here. Thank you.
30/05/2011 at 12:05 am Permalink
There are some very good people in this world.
I am glad that they include Peter Kennedy. Peter has set an example for all of us – not just believers in the Roman Catholic faith.
If we cannot act according to our convictions, in the face of the temptation to compromise fundamental values and principles when under pressure to conform and placate others, what can we do?
The importance of creating an inclusive community cannot be under-estimated.
People of the ilk of Peter and his congregation, who are willing to think deeply and to accept responsibility for their own choices and to address the challenges of life today, are in very short supply.
Their message could not be more relevant.
30/05/2011 at 2:19 am Permalink
i have read peter’s book and i pleased to see the story on compass tonight.
i was very pleased to see that your group is still on a path of growth on many levels.
whileever there is a seeking after ideas and trying to find what fits for this time your group holds out a shinning light in the darkness
30/05/2011 at 2:39 am Permalink
As a person who has experienced the kindness and compassion that was extended to me ….now many years ago by Peter Kennedy [then Fr Peter] when I was in a state of despair – a priest and man who greeted me [a total stranger to him] as if he had known me always – I have felt always, deeply grateful for his ‘gentleness’, kindness of spirit, non-judgment and all he shared with me on that day.
It is not ‘discussions’ or ‘arguments’ regarding Church doctrine, the comments [on websites], the many newpaper articles or TV programs I have followed [for many years] that have yet touched me…..or inspired me at all to think other than [how few are sharing 'with a loving heart'].
Yet – no doubt, for many others who have also known ‘the love shared’, the compassionate and gentle heart that belongs to the man who was ‘there for me’ .. [invited me into his home, accompanied by his beloved dog], as he sat ‘listened’ and was deeply ‘present’ with me…….I know Peter is not a man of ‘words’, but ‘actions’. He is a man of ‘truth’…….and of love. He had no need to ‘inspire’ others to follow him or whatever ‘beliefs’ he may hold – he simply ‘lives’ as he loves.
He would be the least ‘egotistical’ man imaginable – sounds somwhat like the ‘Jesus’ I so love who did ‘lead by example’.
I hope that I have been able to share some of the comfort I received that day – and Peter Kennedy I love you for you.
God bless you always.
Love Anne
30/05/2011 at 2:53 am Permalink
Hi there
I saw the documentary tonight on Compass. To sum up, it’s Christianity without Christ. Not a rebel splinter group, but one that is being steered away from the sometimes inconvenient and confronting truths espoused by the Catholic Church. Steering towards the way of the world, that is, conformity to the ‘dictatorship of relativism’, backing down from teachings of the Church that are hard for the modern world to swallow. We always want to reduce what God has made into something so small, so meaningless. Reducing it into something that flatters ourselves and our world view. Why? Please come back to the true Church and discover the inexhaustible profundity of the Catholic faith.
Peace be with you.
Tom.
30/05/2011 at 7:16 am Permalink
I watched this fascinating film last night. It was truly amazing and thought I’d let you know my thoughts. I am 45, a single mum with 3 children, live in Melbourne and am a member of St Leonards Uniting Church. Just like your church I love my church, I love being part of the community and the services truly resonates with me and with each member of the congregation that I talk to. We’re a very loving and compassionate community and we are trying to get more involved with the wider community which St Marys has been so successful at doing. I take my hat off to you.
I’d like to talk about the part in the film where members were becoming disenchanted with your style of theology. A book “The Power of Now” by Eckharte Tolle has singlehandedly changed my life. I took time off in January this year, read it (for about the 5th time) and it was as if I was reading it for the first time. Clearly I was at the point in my life where I was truly ready for its message. Since then I have become “aware”. I don’t resist, I say to myself “it just is”. Getting angry is a waste of time and uses negative energy.
The reason I’m telling you this is that I’ve come to understand that not a lot of people are “aware”. The majority of the people I talk to are not like me. When friends are going through a tough time I try to get them to understand the “don’t resist – it just is” philosophy, they find it difficult to grasp. They prefer to go back to what they feel familiar with – all the things Tolle talks about in his book.
So I do understand why your disenchanted members feel the way they do. For me, my journey took me to Eckhart Tolle, and now I have people consistently telling me that I am amazing, my attitude is fantastic, that I am doing so well, that I look great.
Living in the now is the answer. Getting your members to understand? I don’t know the answer. I’ve tried to make people understand and their eyes start glazing over and they just see it as “another book”.
I wish you well in your work and I wish you every good thing.
With warm regards
Dorianne
30/05/2011 at 7:50 am Permalink
Great to see your work on the TV last night. At least some people think straight, it seems! One important thing is that the people need foundational understanding of how life, world, mind, life etc work to replace the old thinking. This is where we need to bring the holism and clarity. Without this part a community is bound to scatter itself…
30/05/2011 at 11:02 am Permalink
Hi Peter
I was truly uplifted when I saw this program last night.At least up until the point where I heard you say that you didn’t believe Jesus existed.And you started to take your flock on a ” new age ‘ journey.History proves he existed.However as claimed early in the program you said he was a man , with which I agree but I was confused.The love and compassion that was obvious in your flock at the start of the film was a credit to you and the very essence of the message delivered by Jesus.He to was outcast by the religous leaders at the time because he posed a threat to their authority and therefore control. Rekindle your faith and courage and regroup your flock on the principles you first espoused and you will be a bigger threat than ever.More importantly you will attract people who want to know the truth. Remember the gentiles.
30/05/2011 at 11:08 am Permalink
Hi Peter
I forgot to say that you don’t need to worry about a venue.If you go back to the original message you were delivering it will be provided.
30/05/2011 at 11:59 am Permalink
My husband and I came across the programme on TV last night, following another show we were watching. Not being the kind of programme we would ever watch (especially my husband), we were drawn in and inspired ..
I was baptised & confirmed a catholic, as was my husband, however in my early teens, when my mum really needed support, she got none from the local priest and community, so decided to start going to the uniting church, as through a friend, the minister there was wonderful. Growing up until my early teens, mum always dragged me along to church, and I can remember it being likened to getting teeth pulled at a dentist! … that all changed when we started going along to the UC .. and it wasnt the message or the weekly “preachings”, but the community and sense of belonging, as well as the acceptance of ALL people to the church. We even had a female minister for some time, and as a young impressionable girl, that to me was awesome! … You all should be poud of yourselves, remaining as a strong community. If we lived in QLD, we would certainly consider coming along to join your community.
30/05/2011 at 12:57 pm Permalink
Congratulations and all power to Peter Kennedy and his followers. Keep up the great and true Christian work. It is a timely reminder to Peter’s critics and distracters that Jesus and his followers challenged the than prevailing religious orthodoxy and their leaders. Just a comment for Tom; tradition irrespective of how old, customs, rituals, funny outfits and outdated music and forms of worship does not constitute profundity or make anything right, good or moral.
Love to all.
Nick
“The truth will set you free”.
30/05/2011 at 1:05 pm Permalink
I watched the documentary on Compass last night. I was intrigued that Fr Kennedy’s spiritual journey has lead him to non-duality. My spiritual journal has lead me there too, but by a very different route, starting from evangelical protestantism, then Christian Science, Advaita Vedanta, New Thought and Infinite Way. Knowing from experience how difficult it can be to grasp non-duality teachings, I can understand how parishoners were puzzled by the talk shown in the film on ‘awareness’ (I prefer the words ‘consciousness’ or ‘being’) . Fr Kennedy faces a tall order if he intends to lead his congregation down this path.
I disagree with the the parisher interviewed on the film that it is nothing more than being a good person. And also the comment above that it is ‘steering towards the way of the world’. To understand and demonstrate non-duality, in line with Jesus’ teaching ‘My kingdom is not of this world’, requires radical surrender of self and of worldliness. Only in this way can we let Christ live our life, to gain a sense of our unity with God, which is the underlying reality of our being. Recognition of our oneness with God implies recognition of oneness with each other, which is the basis of love. That point was made briefly in the film too.
So I wish Fr Kennedy and community well in their exciting and challenging journey ahead.
30/05/2011 at 1:27 pm Permalink
First off I am not a catholic. I am a born again Christian. I have been following this in the media and found it bizzare.
The thing I don’t understand is..if you are agnostic, follow Eckart Tolles teachings, mix in a little buddhism, new age spirtuality and atheism (what the?) why didn’t you just resign from the catholic church?? Why the huge “fight” and protest? Doesn’t make any sense. The only thing that comes to mind is that you Mr Kennedy wanted to make a new church but didn’t want to scrounge around for new followers/ tithe payers. You wanted to make a new age church! What better way to do it than just take the parishiners who think “your a top bloke” along for the ride.
The worst thing you do (apart from fleecing people and separating them further from God of the Bible) is preaching the doctrine from hell that there is no right or wrong. No wonder your church has no direction…
Oh by the way you said that Jesus never said he was God. In the Bible in Revelations 1 Jesus said “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end”. In other words he said he is God.
Whoever is in the St Marys cult, please get a Bible and read the New Testament to find out who Jesus is. Don’t go back to Mr Kennedy’s “church” nor the catholic institution, nor any cult.
Jesus is all you need.
30/05/2011 at 1:58 pm Permalink
I watched your segment on ABC TV’s Compass program last night. Christianity without Christ is how I would best summarise it. As a result I was unsurprised by the apparent lack of stability and direction evident in both Peter Kennedy’s personal journey, and that of the community.
Without Christ, there is no salvation, and you are still in your sins, and under eternal condemnation. Peter Kennedy isn’t even convinced that Christ existed, let alone still exists – he declared it himself. He is not offering the true Gospel, but heresy. Is it any wonder the Catholic Church cannot have him in their ranks? Sadly, the eternal condemnation of others may fall on his head, unless he repents. If the blind lead the blind, will not both fall into a ditch (Matt 15:14)?
The central truth of the Gospel is Christ, and redemption from sin. Social justice may be an outflowing of Christ’s work in our lives, but to help people only in this life is trivial if you send them to hell in comfort.
Give up your spiritualists and false prophets, and return to the Word of God, “for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes” (Romans 1:16).
30/05/2011 at 2:28 pm Permalink
Dear Peter,
I watched the Compass program with great interest last night.I do not now attend a Catholic Church, nor have done for at least 25 years. Yet I feel closer to God now than I have for many years. Like yourself, I was brought up in a very loving family, who regularly went to Sunday Mass. I attended University for 3 years and while there I went to the Catholic Group on Campus. Some non-catholic friends invited me to EU (Evangelical Union) meetings, and I found these groups more fulfilling to me, so I continued to visit these. Consequent to leaving Uni I continued to attend Mass, but I always thought there must be more to life as a Christian than this!(God must have had ME in his sights, as He now has YOU!) I met my Anglican husband, who having seen my character, said ” it’s wonderful that I’m marrying a Christian!” and I always used to look behind me! I was never really sure. It was always about what I was doing and how I felt! We can add nothing to, or subtract from the message clearly written in the Bible. That is why most of the rites of the Catholic Church which are man-made, do not satisfy. That is why people are rebelling now, because these rituals aren’t relevant to people who are homeless, destitute, or rejected by others.God made everyone for a purpose, and that purpose is to acknowledge Him in everything- please excuse me for sounding so high and mighty- can’t express it any other way! He is the creator- we are products of creation- we cannot be so foolish as to try to to mould God’s character into anything we have created! Don’t worrry that the powers of the Catholic Church have rejected you. Continue to preach His word, but the benchmark of His word is the bible. I belong to a bible-based church in NSW. We began as a small community of “rebels.” We were a handful of people in school halls, or wherever it was economical to meet. We are now a group of at least 1200, and we continue to grow. Our main purpose is to point to the legitimacy of God’s word and his pupose and plan for us.. Because we have grown, as well as helping weaker members in the community, we can also use finances to continually grow in other areas. I love being part of this church. I will continue to pray that you will see God’s will and purpose for you and His church in you life.
30/05/2011 at 3:03 pm Permalink
I saw Compass and was deeply moved. I understand where Peter is coming from. The more I read, the more I come to the same conclusions about Christ as Peter. However, I do believe that by saying that Jesus was not divine may be an error, and it may be better to express it this way: God’s divine power was working through Jesus and was with him and he knew how to transmit it in order to help and heal. I do agree with Peter that “Awareness” is the key to wholeness. Because when we are whole we can become One with our creator. Peter is actually demonstrating to us that when we work with the human experience, we can develop awareness, and it is through awareness that we can help people towards wholeness. When we become whole (holy) we become one with our creator. I do believe that the Roman Catholic Church is in error for excommunicating Peter Kennedy from the Church and believe it is time that the Australian Catholic Churches break away from Rome before anymore damage happens. In this way the Australian Catholic Church can lead people back to the true God of love and compassion. Congratulations for your great work Peter and may God Bless you. (I do believe that the Lord’s intention was to bring unity to all the fragmented belief systems in his time).
30/05/2011 at 3:06 pm Permalink
I am sorry to see that Peter Kennedy has left Christianity and searches in various esoteric directions. I can understand the frustration with the Church but that doesn’t mean he should deny Jesus. If he and his followers want to find true Christianity and answers to most spiritual questions, including many appropriate remarks about the church, then just google “Jakob Lorber”. He is for any earnest searcher the greatest treasure in true, universal and non denominational Christianity!
30/05/2011 at 5:39 pm Permalink
I would recommend for all those followers of Peter Kennedy who have left the church with him and are now questioning what it is they actually believe, to go back and actually learn about what the Catholic Church teaches. There are always reasons behind the churches rules and practices that many find hard to swallow. It can take time to understand the significance of some teachings that have been formulated over hundreds of years, but it is worth the effort to persist in coming to know the truth.
30/05/2011 at 8:27 pm Permalink
Hello Contributors,
I too saw the ABC program. We were told it was to be about St Mary’s but it wasn’t. Like everything about St Mary’s it was about Peter. Our Pete got another hit to feed his media addiction; he can’t seem to get enough of it. But I did learn something about the man; or rather, it confirmed something I already knew. Back in the late 60’s those of us who took the first brave steps on the Great Walk Out on so called Christianity, and particularly Vaticanism, pointed out priests were not spiritual teachers, they were deeply neurotic individuals. “Holy orders” had nothing to do with the teachings of Rabbi Jesus; the “church” was an emotional sheltered work shop for those wanting to hide from their inner troubles. Peter, it seems, went there seeking a father figure.
Some healing seems to have occurred within Peter’s wounded psyche – maybe because of the love of his devoted dog – so much so the he can now even rebel against the father figure church. But this is my point: Peter is leading nobody anywhere. He does not know the difference between the psychological journey and the spiritual home coming. Spirituality is only a destination; the journey is exploring the hurt of being unloved by parents, by others, by friends, by “God”, by the rest of humanity. The turning point will come for Peter, as it does for us all, when he forgives his father for being a human being. It will come with accepting that his father would have loved him if he could have: that’s the best we can expect from another person.
Some contributors say that Peter is a compassionate man who was there for them in an hour of hurt. I do not doubt that. But much of it is learnt behaviour, everybody can do it. Even I learnt to flick the switch to the compassionate person doing volunteer work with homeless people in Melbourne. Good works, as St Paul points out, does not heal hurt. But I did learn something: I discovered the broken people were my spiritual teachers.
Love Fosco
30/05/2011 at 9:39 pm Permalink
I had the grave misfortune of being involved in a certain cult which was excommunicated from the Catholic Church some few years ago… What really struck me when I watched the Compass program last night was the striking similarities Peters congregation had to the cult I was involved in. I would strongly advice all caught up in this faction to leave immediately, otherwise years will pass that you will never be able to take back… And I guarantee to you, at some point you will realize you’ve made a huge mistake. At that point you will have to decide whether you will continue supporting the dead movement or whether you will leave all your friends and start all over again… I eventually made my way back to the Catholic Church after years of discernment and a whole lot of study. And I can guarantee to you I’ve never looked back. To follow the unverified, untested teachings of Peter Kennedy would be to dismiss the infallible Doctrines of the Church, all the miracles, all the great saints and everything they have taught us. When such a massive thing as our eternal salvation is on the line, wouldn’t it be utter foolishness not to research everything thoroughly so you can be sure you are following the correct path to righteousness? One more point, a sure sign as to whether one has holy intentions is their willingness to accept humiliation and their humble obedience to proper authority. A perfect example of this is the way St Mary of the Cross accepted the decision of her bishop even though she was in the right. At no point did she display an overriding ego and take action to cause division in the Church.. Here are some interesting quotes on the importance of obedience;
“Satan can even clothe himself in a cloak of humility, but he does not know how to wear the cloak of obedience.” –St. Maria Faustina Kowalska
”He who always acts under obedience may be assured that he will not have to give an account of his actions to God.”
–Saint Philip Neri
”By the other virtues, we offer God what we possess; but by obedience, we offer ourselves to Him. They who obey are conquerors, because by submitting themselves to obedience they triumph over the Angels, who fell through disobedience.”
–Pope Saint Gregory the Great, Father and Doctor of the Church
”He who follows his own ideas in opposition to the direction of his superiors needs no devil to tempt him, for he is a devil to himself.”
–Saint John Climacus
”See God in your superiors; so shall you learn to revere their will and follow their commands. Be well assured that obedience is the safest guide and most faithful interpreter of the Divine Will. Pour out your hearts to them as freely as water, mindful that they are charged with the direction of your souls. . . . Above all, do not be your own master, relying on your own prudence, contrary to the caution of the wise man.”
–Saint Ignatius, Father of the Church
“I often thought my constitution would never endure the work I had to do, (but) the Lord said to me: ‘Daughter, obedience gives strength.’”
–St. Teresa of Avila
“The Devil doesn’t fear austerity but holy obedience.”
– St. Francis de Sales
No man commands safely unless he has learned well how to obey.
–Imitation of Christ
30/05/2011 at 10:07 pm Permalink
The programme showed how the community at St. Mary’s is a glowing example of love in action. Their problem now, however, is that Peter, their priest, seems to have lost his faith in Jesus. How can he say that Jesus did not exist, yet celebrate his birth, celebrate his dying for us, and the ceremony of the Eucharist. It is just not consistent. He also claims that Jesus never claimed to have been sent down from Heaven by God for our salvation. Peter should read the Bible. In John’s Gospel, Chap 17, verse 5, Jesus says “So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory I had in your presence before the world existed.”
30/05/2011 at 10:55 pm Permalink
One of the things that struck me about the program was the beauty of the actual church. Beautiful stations of the cross and the lovely marble altar untouched. Saints alive ,I even thougt I saw an altar rail!But best of all, the tabernacle is still located in the cental altar and not pushed to the side somewhere .All that needs to be done is to change the seating back to the traditional way and you would have a lovely traditional church untouched by post vatican 2 wreckovators. I can assure you that they are very rare.
I really felt more sorry for Fr Kennedy then angry at him for his heracies as he does seem to have really lost the plot.. When he said that he didnt even believe Jesus existed let alone His divinity,, surly that rang some alarm bells among his poor misled followers that Fr Kennedy is actually wanting to lead you away from Jesus who is the way,the truth and the life. The new “church” is certain to self destruct and very soon ,and will leave a lot of lost and confused souls .
31/05/2011 at 7:04 am Permalink
I found the Compass documentary interesting to watch, especially considering the documentary maker is one of the regular members of St Mary’s in Exile. I think Peter (the documentary maker) was attempting to portray things in an even handed manner. I also think he tried to focus maybe too strongly on the concept of a paradigm shift in the ways of traditional thinking. When this is taken out of context it can be easily misunderstood and misquoted.
The documentary picked up a thread through the interview of the girl hoping that there be a new pope welcoming back the community, at a deeper level it sort of cuts to the chase. There has been a lot of hurting and anger which parishioners are gradually begining to heal from.
The documentary missed a very good opportunity to explore why it is that the parish chose to leave almost in its entirety, out of about 500 regulars about 10 stayed with the new official church appointment.
When Fr Peter is held up as the example of what a priest ought not to do, in the clash of the egos between Kennedy and Bathersby, it is the parishioners who were pastorally shunned by the diocese.
When Fr Peter left as administrator of the church, many felt that the bishop betrayed the community, up until that point in time the main thrust had been demanding that Fr Peter resign as administrator, eventually he begrudgingly did this.
Bathersby, from what I have heard from inside circles had not anticipated that the parishioners would not remain. After the church was returned to the diocese, although he had his toy back (the building), as there was no-one there to “play with” anymore, he changed his tack and issued new requirements that Fr Peter stop preaching.
When this then resulted in Fr Peter being told that he could no longer celebrate the mass, marriages or hear confessions – I see this as a deliberate attempt to spiritually blackmail the community, by trying to withhold the sacraments from them.
From a pastoral perspective was this deliberately orchestrated so as to distance and alienate the community? Was it a calculated move to try and prevent ourselves from being able to still claim ourselves as being Catholic? I don’t think that it was coincidental that this occurred shortly after the bishop had hired public relations consultants.
Simultaneously, parishioners that had children baptised in the church received correspondence stating that the baptism may have been invalid. I personally saw some baptisms and can witness to valid baptismal formulas used at those baptisms. It is reported that some baptisms may have been using an invalid formula, I can’t vouch for every baptism but I know what I witnessed. I can also say that as a friend of one of the mothers who had her children baptised in the church, she felt gutted when she received the letter.
The Bishop over several years repeatedly refused to meet with or address the community, despite numerous requests and pleas from the community that he do so. Publically in the media he was very critical not just of Fr Peter but of the community at large, he made accusations towards the community which were based on reports taken out of context or untrue. He chose to entertain allegations and publically air them without acknowledging the parish’s response. When I met with him once and spoke to him broadly about St Marys, initially he wasn’t aware that I was from the parish and he went so far as to make the claim that communion servers featured men dressed in tutus.
As a community although we wrote letters to the Catholic Leader, the official Catholic newspaper of the archdiocese of Brisbane, to correct factually inaccurate and false statements published about our parish, they didn’t publish these or correct any of their misstatements.
It was members of the community who worked in the Catholic schools and other positions within the church who had their jobs threatened or employment contracts terminated.
When Bathersby publically attacked the gay and lesbian choir which sung once a month in the church, Bathersby missed the point. These were members of the parish worshiping and praying, their singing during mass was a two way street. The parish allowed them to feel welcome and for the members of the choir, it was their way of saying thank you and literally giving praise to God. The bishop displayed poor judgement to single them out and target them publically in the secular press, especially when he had refused to meet with members of the community.
When Micah, the social justice outreach of the parish established a community support group for victims of sexual assault perpetrated by members of the clergy, to my knowledge the diocese never made the decision to formally recognise the group adding insult to injury.
Bathersby, in publically stating to the newspapers that many members of the parish weren’t even Catholic and then portraying that this was a bad thing was an epic fail of ecumenical proportions, a significant number of the parishioners were Buddhists or of other denominations and they felt they were being attacked by the bishop’s comments and were literally disgusted by the church’s official attitude towards them.
After the diocese took back control of the church grounds the Bunyan tree which had been planted by the parish in the front lawn of the church, in a ceremony from which over 400 parishioners had attended, to officially recognise the traditional land owners, was removed. I see this as a sign of contempt towards both the parish and the local South Brisbane aboriginal community.
Or as a different example, when Fr Terry secured well over a million dollars of funding for building restoration work in the church, Bathersby publically “acknowledged” him by stating that Fr Terry wasn’t officially appointed to the church and he had no right to secure the funding.
Again, when it comes to money, it is suggested the diocese wanted to take control of Micah, this was after it had secured millions in funding for providing housing to the homeless, by many this was seen as a money grubbing exercise.
Psychologists tell us that individuals who resorts to “waiting for change” to happen from somewhere else becomes stagnant. As an interesting exercise, if one was to perform a Google search for Micah Projects Brisbane – 371,000 search results come back. Another search for St Marys Brisbane – 775,000 search results.
The community may potentially grow stagnant over time, only time will tell, but as a community we haven’t been resorting to waiting for change, as a community we have implemented change whilst also undergoing change as well.
I admit we haven’t got a strong sense of a specific new theological identity as a community, a big part of this being that we still identify ourselves as Catholic. A review of our guiding principals can be found at http://stmaryssouthbrisbane.com/guiding-principles/
On a separate point, interestingly, the documentary barely touched on the role of Fr Terry Fitzpatrick, who still retains his priestly faculties. When Fr Terry celebrates a mass, as a community we aren’t fully outside of the church (yet). I however concede, the public relations consultants hired by the bishop have done a good job in portraying us as not being Catholic. With our community being discredited in this manner, this results in distancing us even further from the diocese.
Is the question ever really asked why did pretty much the whole parish leave? Is the question ever asked, why from a pastoral perspective over many years, did the bishop refuse to meet with and respond to the parish’s request of an audience with him?
I think the documentary tried to focus maybe too strongly on the concept of a paradigm shift in the ways of traditional thinking. When this is taken out of context it can be easily misunderstood and misquoted.
Fr Peter addressed this recently in one of his homilies. Where he posed the question, “How is it possible to formulate into words, something which is ultimately indefinable, indescribable and utterly beyond human comprehension”?
To quote from parts of his homily…
The mystic is one who “knows” God. Knows in inverted commas because this “knowing” is not a rational knowledge – not gained through a process of reasoning. It is rather a “direct seeing”, a “spontaneous knowing” made possible by the exercise of our human capacity of intuition-what we might call the way of the heart-even the way of the child as Jesus suggests.
Let us listen to some of those voices down the centuries.
1. Julian of Norwich writes:
“We are of God. That is what we are. I see no difference between God and our Substance. I see it as all God. And know that God is nearer to us than our own soul, because God is the ground in which our soul stands”.
2. Francis of Assisi writes:
“I, Francis, am so caught up in God that I am dead to my identity with family and my past-I am a new creature. I am one with all creation. The bird and I speak to each other, for we are one in essence and being”.
3. Nicholas of Cusa (15th Cardinal):
“Divinity is the enfolding and unfolding of everything that is. Divinity is in all things in such a way that all things are in Divinity”.
4. Mechthild of Magdeburg writes:
“The day of my spiritual awakening was the day I saw and knew I saw all things in God and God in all things”.
5. Catherine of Siena writes:
“All I could say is, ‘my name is God’. I do not know my selfhood save in Him. My me is God”.
“Truly the souls’ being united with and transformed into Him is like fire consuming the dampness in logs. Once the logs are heated through and through, the fire burns and changes them into itself, giving them its own color and warmth and power”.
…this moving away from a literal understanding of Christianity was why we were told that we were outside the Roman Catholic Church. This tradition, this teaching of the Mystics has always been suppressed by institutional religions. They demand absolute obedience to human authority, to creeds and to a belief system which cannot be anything other than human concepts. Such concepts arise in the mind, which, by nature, is dualistic-concepts, beliefs which cause division, separation, ignorance which lead millions into error.
To end with, the reality is that sermons of this nature are pretty deep and can be challenging to follow and this is portrayed in the reactions towards similar sermons by some of the interviews featured in the documentary.
31/05/2011 at 2:41 pm Permalink
Hello Contributors,
Dominic, David and Paul, as well as some other commentators, call on Peter and his followers to return to the “Church”. There is absolutely no doubt these are good and well meaning Christian people. Nevertheless, they are wrong! The “Church” of which they speak is dead. It died sometime in the 60’s. Rather, back then we came to know of its death: it had been dead for sometime already. I know all this because I am a victim of the emotional slaughter yard of so called 50’s catholic education. I have never been to theology school, never been in holy orders but I speak with greater authority: that of the Victim.
The “Church” of which Dominic, David and Paul speak tried to make people “good” by placing them in a structure of “goodness”. This does not work. It makes a person ignorant of self. In this morning’s Melbourne Age we had yet another tragic case if this failure: a Christian Brother pleading guilty to more crimes of child abuse. People claiming to know the mind of “God” yet not knowing their own sexuality: maybe that can be the dead church’s epitaph!
I do not agree with much of Peter and Terry, I half suspect they are on a cult of personality trip, BUT they are doing something very Christian, very Rabbi Jesus, they are “on the move”; maybe they even believe that in the experience of death we will find new life.
Now, regarding spiritual teachers there was one in the Compass program. Did you see him? He was there. Silently, understating, you had to listen hard to hear him but he was definitely there. I do not know if I should identify him, he most likely does not wish to be identified but why not? He was the street person selling the Big Issue and talking about being loved.
Love Fosco
01/06/2011 at 12:19 am Permalink
I agree with the comments made by Gerard (31/05). The Compass program was very enlightening, however it ended with no clear resolution (or even indication) as to the congregation’s theological progression. I sympathies greatly with Peter Kennedy’s doubts as to the divinity of Jesus, however I would reason that in all likelihood there was a Jesus of Nazareth who said and did some extraordinary things.
One of the common themes I noted in many of the critical comments concerning Peter Kennedy and his congregation in exile, was an absolute reliance on “the Bible”. Does it ever occur to such folk, that “The Bible” as it is now used in its many translations and formats, is really the result of decisions taken at the Council of Nicene. Many “books” were left out / taken out of the “modern” Bible. The selection process was highly subjective and it is no wonder that much of the Bible is contradictory and in many parts very obscure in meaning and definition.
The Gospels in the New Testament for instance are now known to have been based largely on the original work done by an author we know as St Mark. The rest effectively copied and embellished what St Mark wrote. Put simply, it is very high handed of some Christian folk to place ABSOLUTE reliance on The Bible (in its post Nicene format) as being the infallible and complete word of God.
I use the term “high handed” rather than “wrong” or “erroneous” simply because I – like they – cannot prove the “holiness” or “divinely authored or recorded” status of The Bible. It is true to say that many folk have FAITH that these descriptors apply to The Bible, but FAITH is NOT FACT. There is a very astute saying that “everyone is entitled to their own opinions, BUT they are NOT entitled to their own FACTS”. Peter Kennedy and others may do far worse than to reflect on the general thrust of the messages attributed to the Biblical Jesus.
Almost without exception, Jesus’ statements were “inclusive”. They were almost always about “love” and “generosity” and other compassion oriented attributes. I suspect from what I saw in the Compass program that Peter Kennedy and his followers are acting out Christ like roles in their daily lives. Evangelicals and other Johanine and Pauline fellow travelers will at this stage thunderously quote the old “I am the Way and The Truth and The Life etc” text, however, I suspect that the real Jesus of Nazareth – divine or not – would either never have said such a narrowly exclusive thing, or else if he did then it was meant to be set in a much wider context and this context has been omitted by the authors of the Gospels.
The biblical Jesus was clearly on a mission to “fix” the “Old Testament” focus on fear and punishment and replace it with Love of God and Love of our neighbours (fellow humans). It is because this is what I “believe” about Jesus that I can say to Peter Kennedy and his congregation “keep going – your belief in each other and in the inherent common goodness of humanity will lead you over time to develop a clear and strong core of beliefs that will allow you to call yourselves catholic christians in the commonsense meaning of those terms”. I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church, but in saying that, I believe that we should all celebrate the rich variety of belief systems whether or not they are based on faith or reason.
01/06/2011 at 12:36 pm Permalink
Hi Peter,
If there is such thing as Hell you are bound for it but I am proud to tell you that we will be sitting on the same cloud next to each other and with the Dalai Lama and other Saintly people whom for not holding certain beliefs will roast in Hell according to some.
Peter, you have been touched by the grace of God, and do not let any one distract you from the path of goodness and compassion towards humanity. As long as you show by example and teach without imposing (like churches from all religion do) then you are a winner for others and for yourself.
The world could do with more Peter Kennedy’s, you have hit the nail right on its head. It is a very strong belief of mine that people should be thought to think and reflect and learn to love themselves first to be able to love and help others selflessly. People have to learn to take responsibility and stop relying on the diverse religious corporations for total guidance in their lives. I do believe that there are some snippets of truth everywhere coming from more spiritually advances human beings, however they as humans are not the complete truth ever. And people should follow a path towards love and compassion without rituals attached (which can open a door to abuse in the wrong hands), although I know that people need that sense of belonging and rituals it is not necessary to belong to any group to feel fulfilled, happy and compassionate.
I would love to read your book, so I will try to get it from the library. I am writing a book myself, with the same purpose as you, promoting awareness, and I know it is a difficult path, but I know like you do to that one of the roads of truth is compassion towards self and others. Gratefulness and the power of now are important elements too. Unfortunately not everyone is at the same spiritual level and for some it will take many more incarnations to get to your point of view, if ever. Every one is free to chose their own path and learn from their own experiences. And one thing I know for sure and stress it out is that no human has the right to claim that he knows the ultimate truth. As advanced spiritual beings the responsibility towards others become bigger and stronger, yet if we cross the threshold and start imposing our will on the more vulnerable beings, then everyone loses instead of gaining. However, Peter you appear to me as a genuine man who just wants to help. And if these are your true intention may you be blessed for ever.
I have learned too the hard way to appreciate every minute of my life and see it as a blessing and I too, am trying to share it with the world.
As for Jesus, I think he lived but that he was just a man an enlighten being but still a man.
If Jesus could have predicted the grief that his life had caused through centuries of persecutions, I feel for him.
Religion has turned into politics, there is nothing spiritual about any religion.
I congratulate you Peter for your honesty towards humanity, having the guts to follow some truth opposed to some politics. You are and we all are small human beings, we are not perfect and all of us have our attributes. My measure of success in life is being happy and make happy the people that cross my journey.
The day I die I don’t know were I’ll go but I know for sure that I will not fear anything and will die peacefully knowing that I would have made even a very small difference for the better in this world. Even if no one hears of me ever.
Life is all about balance, and you are right Peter, there is no right or wrong. I came up with a very interesting concept on extremes. I am sure you would get it. It is easy, draw extremes with a simple line and see what you come up with. Think about it carefully.
I would be interested in your answer.
Anyway Mr ‘Heretic’! I wish you all the best in you life and spiritual journey. Keep up the good work.
Helen
01/06/2011 at 7:37 pm Permalink
Unfortunately St Mary’s in exile has become a cult church, it has nothing to do with the Catholic Church. One can only prayer that these people who have been mislead return to the true faith and Catholic teachings.. The devil works in many ways has been reflected in this programme.
I await a response from those stooges who support this movement!
02/06/2011 at 5:36 pm Permalink
Hello Contributors,
Geoff, who gives a thoughtful summary of a century of biblical scholarship, says many of Peter’s critics are Bible based. But my criticism isn’t. I did do some scripture reading: I found the old testament obscene, god, a racist mad mass murder, and after reading St Mark, I thought Rabbi Jesus should get himself into a men’s anger management group. Any male that angry was clearly not loved by his mother. How they extracted Catholicism, or rather Vaticanism, from what was written was a complete mystery to me. The ‘thing” is the most read-into book ever written.
So, what are we now to do with this “word of god”? Burn it! Rabbi Jesus never wrote in it, and St Paul wrote letters to his communities and did not know he was “writing the Bible”. More importantly it’s not needed. We have something far greater. With the holy faith now in its deepest hour of death we should return to our source knowing: human experience. Not just any experience but that most precious. Suffering!
We would still be following Rabbi Jesus and also St Paul the radical self hater; that’s what they did.
Love Fosco
03/06/2011 at 7:55 pm Permalink
Further to my last comments, I believe it is time for people of good will to now stand up and be counted and minister to those lost souls who have been mislead by Peter, Peter Kennedy by his own standing doubts that a Jesus Christ existed.. Is this man to be believed. I call on all people to stand up and say NO to this person and to return to the true Catholic Church.
05/06/2011 at 1:56 am Permalink
In response to Dominic Malcolm’s comment:
You are talking about the need for obediance but what if in obeying God we are disobeying the Church?
We are exploring the will of God for our lives and we obey it with all our heart and body and mind. And then we are judged or rehected outright because what we are doing is unacceptable in the eyes of the Church.
Is the doctrine of the Church greater than the will of God. The Church claims to represent God and to be a mediator of God in the world. This same church is also responsible for physical, psychological and sexual abuse of children, women and men, the murders of the Inquisition… so many deepy immoral and shameful acts. From this can we see that the Church is falliable – it is clearly capable of doing wrong.
This is a very challenging thought but we must face it in order to live honestly and mindfully and not continue mindlessly in the comfortable delusions of infaliablity which keep a failing, unhealthy and stagnated institution on it’s feet and in a position of power and control.
05/06/2011 at 10:17 pm Permalink
What a joy to come back and find the comments section not dead but flourishing as never before. Must be a new man at the helm.
Of the many varied and interesting comments made recently, one short line stood out for me as getting to the heart of the so called ‘trouble with St Marys’:
Gerard said “… we haven’t got a strong sense of a specific new theological identity as a community, a big part of this being that we still identify ourselves as Catholic”. (By ‘we’ he must have meant the subgroup of the community who have a catholic background. Presumably the Buddhists, secular humanists, etc, of the community, mentioned by another commentator, don’t have any problem at all.)
You are bound to have trouble trying to maintain two contradictory propositions in your mind. You want to belong and at the same time you don’t want to belong. You want to identify as catholic but don’t accept even one distinctively catholic doctrine. You don’t know what you believe, except that it’s definitely not catholic teaching – but you want to be catholics anyway.
CONTRARY TO THE CYNICISM GIVEN THIS POSTING WAS SPECIFICALLY PUT UP TO ACCEPT THE MANY COMMENTS REGARDING THE COMPASS PROGRAM. THE MANY COMMENTS THAT HAVE BE PREVIOUSLY MADE AND THAT ARE NOT SPECIFIC TO THE POSTING THAT THEY ACCOMPANY ARE BEING REMOVED- John Fitz-Walter.
04/07/2011 at 6:19 pm Permalink
Perry the blog contributions here, of course not-withstanding moderation, are plentiful and diverse because this Hegedus documentary is the best in depth coverage of the St Mary’s story of recent years that I’ve read/viewed. It is so good, because Hegedus just lets key people like Peter and Karen tell their stories. I must also say the music composed for the documentary is outstanding – it captures the mood of melancholy, that really is in many people’s hearts who have been involved with the St Mary’s story in recent years, but it’s also more universal than that too.
Another quite good documentary is Australian Story’s coverage. The ‘Peter Kennedy the Man Who Threatened Rome’ book is good in certain chapters, particularly those chapters written in first person by the likes of Karen Walsh, although all the coverage does in many ways seem over-sensatlionalised and perhaps even unwarranted a tad, given that St Mary’s really is a fairly small church.
I’ve said this a few times both in meetings recently at the old parish, online, and formulated in talking over many years and developing friendships with St Mary’s parishioners, is that I’d say one of the key issues omitted from all the media coverage in recent years and omitted by bloggers here, including Gerard when he says “out of about 500 regulars about 10 stayed with the new official church appointment”, is the naturally and unremarkably fragmented social history of this small inner city church.
I’ve attended St Mary’s 1987-1990 every week, playing music regularly at masses and heavily involved at that time, particularly in the experimental Saturday night liturgy, took a break for about 4 years, then went back several times a year until 2004, when again I attended regularly until early 2008, and I returned in September 2009 to the old church, and have volunteered helping to direct the music there since. I returned because the issues involved in St Mary’s as a church were diverse, even though doctrine was under question, and grabbing such widespread media attention in 2009. Interesting though, that St Mary’s grabs much less media attention now.
If you talk with members of either SME or the old church, you can piece together yourself how this fragmented social history is constructed – migrants, international students, those like myself in the above paragraph attending and heavily involved at different periods in the last few decades, we’ve never really stopped calling St Mary’s a spiritual home. Some of that is Peter Kennedy and Terry Fitzpatrick’s pastoral care, some of it is that it is a Catholic church, some simply the spirit of the place, and the interesting and diverse suburb of South Brisbane. Many reasons. I sat through many a homily from Peter Kennedy 2004-2008 thinking “interesting points being raised – not sure how you can support that”, so I was not entirely comfortable with his teaching at that point, though always aware of the interest of Peter in Thomas Merton and the like from many years ago, could understand how he had progressed along these lines to Ekhardt Tolle. Tolle though, was just too far from Christianity and Catholicism for me to grasp hold of in the context of the Catholic liturgy. Maybe a study group during the week would have been better.
Point is though, I was willing to forgive Peter for his eccentricities in his later years at the old church because of all the wonderful work he had done. But.. it was time for him to retire I thought in 2005. And perhaps then for us to acknowledge as people from previous years would have come back to celebrate that event, what a fragmented, complex, and diverse community St Mary’s really is. It’s taken us a much more painful route 2008-now to realise that naturally fragmented history, and actually, it still has been a healing process. Sure you get angry from time to time as a volunteer in a church, it’s hard. You’ve got many other things to do in your life that sometimes rate higher than church! Work, health, family… hence why people do slip away from church, and why they come back.
I’m glad I came back, to try to commit myself to support the community in South Brisbane through hard times, and for the many years this story and the struggles of the Australian Catholic Church are still yet to play out. St Mary’s matters, it’s important – the Catholic church is important. It’s faith yes, but churches are also part of the fabric of our communities. They must be preserved and cared for, and lived in, these old churches, these special places.